American hedonism closes its eyes to death, and has been
incapable of exorcising the destructive power of the moment
with a wisdom like that of the Epicureans of antiquity.

- Octavio Paz
Death is un-American, and an affront to every citizen's inalienable
right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

- Arnold Toynbee
the_band_huge
the_band_huge
"As long as such self-serving hypocrisy
motivates America's response, Ukraine will
only sink further into needless bloodshed,
and that blood will be on America's head."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
the_band_huge
In America everybody is of the opinion that he has no social superiors,
since all men are equal, but he does not admit that he has no social inferiors,
for, from the time of Jefferson onward, the doctrine that all men are equal
applies only upwards, not downwards.

― Bertrand Russell
Global Coke
Global Coke
"What those 'racists' are reflexively and rightly reacting
to is the soulless chill as the fire goes out beneath the
melting pot. Those who think America can thrive as a
'cultural mosaic' are worse than fools; they're Canadians."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Global Coke
Two centuries ago, a former European colony decided to catch up with Europe.
It succeeded so well that the United States of America became a monster,
in which the taints, the sickness and the inhumanity of Europe
have grown to appalling dimensions.

― Frantz Fanon
What the United States does best is understand itself.
What it does worst is understand others.

- Carlos Fuentes
Poor Mexico, so far from God
and so close to the United States.

- Porfirio Diaz
the_band_huge
the_band_huge
"Indeed, everything about the American southland was magical
and exotic to the young Canadian musicians, from the sights
and smells to the drawling manner of speech to, especially, the
central role that music played in people’s everyday lives."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
the_band_huge
America is a mistake, a giant mistake.
- Sigmund Freud
America is an adorable woman chewing tobacco.
- Auguste Bartholdi
chimerica
chimerica
"This is the tone of the China Century, a subtle
mix of Nazi/Soviet bravado and 'oriental'
cunning -- easily misunderstood, and
never
heard before, in a real enemy, by the West."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
chimerica
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
"And for the others who argued for English-only
patriotism, I note that there are more than
57 million Americans (about 20% of the nation)
whose first-language is not English...."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
predator-firing-missile4
predator-firing-missile4
"This is the behavior, and the fate, of paranoid
old-world tyrants like Hitler or Saddam, not liberal new-world democracies like America pretends to be."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
predator-firing-missile4
America is the only nation in history which
miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to
degeneration without the usual interval of civilization.

- Georges Clemenceau
I found there a country with thirty-two religions and only one sauce.
- Charles–Maurice Talleyrand
A people who are still, as it were, but in the gristle,
and not yet hardened into the bone of manhood.

- Edmund Burke
America is the only country ever founded on the printed word.
- Marshall McLuhan
"The removal of racist sports nicknames (and mascots) seems outrageously belated
-- why, exactly, has this civil rights cause
taken so long to gain momentum?"

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
The atom bomb is a paper tiger which the
United States reactionaries use to scare people.
It looks terrible, but in fact it isn't.

- Mao Tse-tung
They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but
they kept only one; they promised to take our land, and they did.

- Red Cloud
In America sex is an obsession,
in other parts of the world it is a fact.

- Marlene Dietrich
I would rather have a nod from an American,
than a snuff-box from an emperor.

- Lord Byron
One day the United States discovered it was an empire.
But it didn’t know what an empire was.
It thought that an empire was merely the biggest of all corporations.

- Roberto Calasso
Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather
be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

- Alexis de Tocqueville
newtown
newtown
"No one, I thought, could watch those scenes, of young children slaughtered en masse, and so many parents grieving, without thinking that this, finally, would tip some kind of balance in the country."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
newtown
If you are prepared to accept the consequences of your dreams
then you must still regard America today with the same naive
enthusiasm as the generations that discovered the New World.

- Jean Baudrillard
I am willing to love all mankind, except an American.
- Samuel Johnson
America, thou half brother of the world;
With something good and bad of every land.

- Philip Bailey
"What can be more powerful than disinformation in the Information Age?"
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
England and America are two countries separated by the same language.
- Sir Walter Besant
Christopher Columbus, as everyone knows, is honored by
posterity because he was the last to discover America.

- James Joyce
Now, from America, empty indifferent things
are pouring across, sham things, dummy life.

- Rainer Maria Rilke
If the United States is to recover fortitude and lucidity,
it must recover itself, and to recover itself it must
recover the "others"- the outcasts of the Western world.
- Octavio Paz
The youth of America is their oldest tradition.
It has been going on now for three hundred years.

- Oscar Wilde
"America really is, for most Americans, all things considered, a good place to be, and all they really want is for everyone to enjoy the same privilege and pleasure."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
When good Americans die they go to Paris;
when bad Americans die they go to America.

- Oscar Wilde
jobs drug dealer
jobs drug dealer
They're nothing more than traffickers; and as the smart traffickers'll tell you, you don't use the merchandise. They are just inoculating their kids with a tech-drug serum, to immunize them against the very merchandise that put the **** bowling alley in their basement.
jobs drug dealer
America is therefore the land of the future, where, in the ages that
lie before us, the burden of the World's History shall reveal itself.

- Georg Friedrich Hegel
America is a large, friendly dog in a very small room.
Every time it wags its tail, it knocks over a chair.

- Arnold Toynbee
Americans always try to do the right thing after they've tried everything else.
- Winston Churchill
The thing that impresses me most about Americans
is the way parents obey their children.

- Edward, Duke of Windsor
Americans are apt to be unduly interested in discovering
what average opinion believes average opinion to be.

- John Maynard Keynes
Europe was created by history.
America was created by philosophy.

- Margaret Thatcher
America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of
Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived.
He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races.

- Israel Zangwill
American dreams are strongest in the hearts of those
who have seen America only in their dreams.

- Pico Iyer
America: It's like Britain, only with buttons.
- Ringo Starr
The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer.
It has never yet melted.

― D.H. Lawrence
I have two conflicting visions of America.
One is a kind of dream landscape and the other is a kind of black comedy.

― Bono
The American mirror, said the voice, the sad American mirror
of wealth and poverty and constant useless metamorphosis,
the mirror that sails and whose sails are pain.

― Roberto Bolaño

April 13, 2022

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Author Topic: Mandela


Ebele-
Chidoka
Experienced Their American
Posts: 10
Mandela
on: December 5, 2013, 21:47

Goodbye, Tata.
May your spirit live on, in Africans and non-Africans alike.
After all that the apartheid regime did to him and those he loved, he sought justice with mercy and compassion in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He sought brotherhood among the races and nations, and held the United Nations as the ultimate and only true hope for the future of the world.
This interview about America in the Middle East says it all about his vision, and about how much he will be missed: http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/NM091002.html
Anna is right. I hear no voice like his now, with such strength and authority, yet humanity, anywhere, in Africa or outside it.
Where is the leader in the 21st century? Where is Khulu?
Gone.



Kevin-
Orant
Novice Their American
Posts: 6
Re: Mandela
on: December 6, 2013, 01:36

Let's not forget something else, since we're in Their America! 🙂
Bill Clinton and so many others are paying tribute now, but Mandela was, for the U.S., officially a terrorist until 2008.

Mandela the man once branded a terrorist by the US

DEC 6, 2013 | SAPA-AFP |

In 2008 just before his 90th birthday, the United States gave Nelson Mandela a special present, striking him from a decades-old terror watch list and ending what US officials called "a rather embarrassing matter."

By then the anti-apartheid icon had long left behind the jail cells where he was incarcerated for 27 years, and was already enjoying retirement and his status as one of the most revered statesmen of the 20th century after becoming South Africa's first black president.

In past years, US officials have beaten a path to his door in his family village hoping some of his almost saint-like aura would rub off on them.

On Thursday, when Mandela died at age 95, President Barack Obama hailed him as belonging "to the ages" and ordered that flags on US government buildings be flown at half-mast -- a rare tribute to a foreign leader.

Yet decades ago many in America did not share in the adulation of Mandela and his African National Congress (ANC), which had been billed a terrorist organization by both South Africa and the United States. His severest right-wing critics painted him as an unrepentant terrorist and a communist sympathizer.

It was even reported that the CIA had helped engineer Mandela's 1962 arrest when an agent inside the ANC supplied South African security officials with a tip-off to track him down.

In the 1980s however, late Democratic US senator Ted Kennedy drafted legislation with senator Lowell Weicker that would eventually become one of the global catalysts leading to the collapse of the apartheid system.



Kevin-
Orant
Novice Their American
Posts: 6
Re: Mandela
on: December 7, 2013, 00:20

I'm sorry for the long posting but I wanted to continue with evidence for my point above. Most American media are not paying attention to what Mandela actually said about the United States.

Six Things Nelson Mandela Believed That Most People Won’t Talk About
BY AVIVA SHEN AND JUDD LEGUM ON DECEMBER 6, 2013 AT 10:11 AM
CREDIT: AP
In the desire to celebrate Nelson Mandela’s life — an iconic figure who triumphed over South Africa’s brutal apartheid regime — it’s tempting to homogenize his views into something everyone can support. This is not, however, an accurate representation of the man.
Mandela was a political activist and agitator. He did not shy away from controversy and he did not seek — or obtain — universal approval. Before and after his release from prison, he embraced an unabashedly progressive and provocative platform. As one commentator put it shortly after the announcement of the freedom fighter’s death, “Mandela will never, ever be your minstrel. Over the next few days you will try so, so hard to make him something he was not, and you will fail. You will try to smooth him, to sandblast him, to take away his Malcolm X. You will try to hide his anger from view.”
As the world remembers Mandela, here are some of the things he believed that many will gloss over.
1. Mandela blasted the Iraq War and American imperialism. Mandela called Bush “a president who has no foresight, who cannot think properly,” and accused him of “wanting to plunge the world into a holocaust” by going to war in Iraq. “All that (Mr. Bush) wants is Iraqi oil,” he said. Mandela even speculated that then-Secretary-General Kofi Annan was being undermined in the process because he was black. “They never did that when secretary-generals were white,” he said. He saw the Iraq War as a greater problem of American imperialism around the world. “If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities in the world, it is the United States of America. They don’t care,” he said.
2. Mandela called freedom from poverty a “fundamental human right.” Mandela considered poverty one of the greatest evils in the world, and spoke out against inequality everywhere. “Massive poverty and obscene inequality are such terrible scourges of our times — times in which the world boasts breathtaking advances in science, technology, industry and wealth accumulation — that they have to rank alongside slavery and apartheid as social evils,” he said. He considered ending poverty a basic human duty: “Overcoming poverty is not a gesture of charity. It is an act of justice. It is the protection of a fundamental human right, the right to dignity and a decent life,” he said. “While poverty persists, there is no true freedom.”
3. Mandela criticized the “War on Terror” and the labeling of individuals as terrorists, even Osama Bin Laden, without due process. On the U.S. terrorist watch list until 2008 himself, Mandela was an outspoken critic of President George W. Bush’s war on terror. He warned against rushing to label terrorists without due process. While calling for Osama bin Laden to be brought to justice, Mandela said, “The labeling of Osama bin Laden as the terrorist responsible for those acts before he had been tried and convicted could also be seen as undermining some of the basic tenets of the rule of law.”
4. Mandela called out racism in America. On a trip to New York City in 1990, Mandela made a point of visiting Harlem and praising African Americans’ struggles against “the injustices of racist discrimination and economic equality.” He reminded a larger crowd at Yankee Stadium that racism was not exclusively a South African phenomenon. “As we enter the last decade of the 20th century, it is intolerable, unacceptable, that the cancer of racism is still eating away at the fabric of societies in different parts of our planet,” he said. “All of us, black and white, should spare no effort in our struggle against all forms and manifestations of racism, wherever and whenever it rears its ugly head.”
5. Mandela embraced some of America’s biggest political enemies. Mandela incited shock and anger in many American communities for refusing to denounce Cuban dictator Fidel Castro or Libyan Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, who had lent their support to Mandela against South African apartheid. “One of the mistakes the Western world makes is to think that their enemies should be our enemies,” he explained to an American TV audience. “We have our own struggle.” He added that those leaders “are placing resources at our disposal to win the struggle.” He also called the controversial Palestinian Liberation Organization leader Yasser Arafat “a comrade in arms.”
6. Mandela was a die-hard supporter of labor unions. Mandela visited the Detroit auto workers union when touring the U.S., immediately claiming kinship with them. “Sisters and brothers, friends and comrades, the man who is speaking is not a stranger here,” he said. “The man who is speaking is a member of the UAW. I am your flesh and blood.”



Ebele-
Chidoka
Experienced Their American
Posts: 10
Re: Mandela
on: December 7, 2013, 04:25

These things are all true, I'm sure, Kevin, as was the ratical.org interview I cited. But one reason the American media is not taking all this up now, is because Madiba is gone. Our loss is first. It is a time for mourning, and celebration, and aspiration, for all of us, including America.
This is not to ignore or "gloss over" his views.
I trust that Clinton knows what you are saying, but knows also that this is not the time to say it.



Kevin-
Orant
Novice Their American
Posts: 6
Re: Mandela
on: December 7, 2013, 22:21

Ebele, I see your point -- this is the time to come to terms with the loss of a great man.
But I am skeptical about whether the American media will ever have 'the time' to actually examine Mandela's real ideas and his greatness. There doesn't seem to be any genuine interest in doing this: the 'icon' is interesting to the media, and it lets them set up an easy contrast between the good freedom fighter and the bad white racists in S Africa, but the broader message the man had for the world is not acknowledged. Mandela pointed a finger back at the United States and its own racism, its own imperialism, its own systemic injustices. That is what the media should engage... if not now... WHEN?



Aminah-
Hayek
Experienced Their American
Posts: 17
Re: Mandela
on: December 8, 2013, 03:06

For me, the greatness of Mandela was centered in his reaching past hatred, violence and injustice, to heal. As you suggested, Ebele, the TRC was a great example of this, daring and strong in mercy and compassion. But the most symbolic act for me was his support of the Springboks. This was where politics falls away and pure goodness shines through. Was he a saint? Of course not. He was as shrewd and calculating as--I want to say Jesus--as any masterful statesman. He knew this was needed, to heal. But simply doing what was needed here was so wonderful, it left politics and even statesmanship far behind.
And this is his lesson, I think, his legacy to Americans, if they will only embrace it. Far more valuable and constructive than all the criticisms listed--it seems almost with a kind of pleasure--by Shen and Legum in your post, Kevin. In my region of the Middle East, they have tried and failed, miserably, to win this and that, to beat these and those, and certainly to reach out, in their way, and the result is, as Mahmoud points out so well in the drone thread, ever increasing horror and hatred amongst the very people whom they wish to win over.
Cowards drop robot bombs. Courageous healers like Mandela listen, sympathize, forgive, reach out, endure.
The roots of violent extremism are always essentially the same--whether it is apartheid or Al Qaeda: fear, ignorance, vengeance, fanaticism, intolerance. And the roots of healing too are always essentially the same: courage, sympathy and understanding. It will be many years before the intense Muslim distrust and hatred, caused by all the winning, beating and misguided giving, can soften and become manageable, even for Muslims. But America can at least begin the long hard work of putting these fires out, simply by stopping pouring fuel on them.
-------
Consider this from the excellent FT article "Nelson Mandela: the meaning of the Madiba magic" :
"It was August 1993. Three and a half blood-soaked years had passed since that diamond-bright afternoon when Mandela was released after 27 years in prison under apartheid. The first all-race elections set for the following April seemed impossibly distant against the backdrop of threats of secession from the white Afrikaner right and daily bloodshed in the townships. Before Mandela in a ramshackle stadium in one of Johannesburg’s desolate townships, thousands of “comrades” rattled makeshift weapons and bayed for revenge. Scores had died in the previous few days in street battles against a rival party. Yet the silver-haired septuagenarian gave no ground.
“If you have no discipline, you are not freedom fighters and we do not want you in our organisation,” he said in his distinctive reedy tones. “I am your leader. If you don’t want me, tell me to go and rest. As long as I am your leader I will tell you where you are wrong.”"
------
For all the good things he did and tried to do, in a way, for me, Mandela's greatness lay more in what he did not do.
And this, I think, is his greatest lesson for America.



Hanna J
New Member
Posts: 1
Re: Mandela
on: December 11, 2013, 20:18

To Kevin's point: we should also remember, as very few American journalists have bothered to point out, that the CIA was likely involved in getting Mandela arrested in the first place....
http://fair.org/take-action/media-advisories/cia-and-mandela-can-the-story-be-told-now/

CIA and Mandela: Can the Story Be Told Now?
Agency's role in Mandela capture still mostly not news

Back in 1990, FAIR noted that the media coverage of Nelson Mandela's release from prison failed to mention there was strong evidence that the CIA had tipped off South African authorities to Mandela's location in 1962, resulting in his arrest.
So with coverage of Mandela's death dominating the media now, can the story of the CIA's role in Mandela's capture be told?
Mostly not.
The link between the CIA and Mandela's capture--reported by CBS Evening News (8/5/86) and in a New York Times column by Andrew Cockburn (10/13/86)--was almost entirely unmentioned in media discussions of his death.



joyo
New Member
Posts: 4
Re: Mandela
on: January 15, 2014, 11:37

That's 50 years ago and the cold war CIA. Not news then, or ever.
--------
What should matter more, but doesn't, is his criticism of the US and attempt to save his people from America's poisonous influence.
Madiba's greatest legacy is also his greatest failure: African nationalism, the drive for true post-colonial independence from white culture. Africa is no closer to freedom now than while he was a prisoner on Robben Island, even Tutu won't vote for the ANC, and the pan-African movement has disintegrated under the weight of Western-style selfishness and corruption.
Black Africa has all the autonomy of a self-employed slave, free only to sell itself to the highest bidder.
"We have our own struggle", he said. And so far we have lost.

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