American hedonism closes its eyes to death, and has been
incapable of exorcising the destructive power of the moment
with a wisdom like that of the Epicureans of antiquity.

- Octavio Paz
Death is un-American, and an affront to every citizen's inalienable
right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

- Arnold Toynbee
the_band_huge
the_band_huge
"As long as such self-serving hypocrisy
motivates America's response, Ukraine will
only sink further into needless bloodshed,
and that blood will be on America's head."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
the_band_huge
In America everybody is of the opinion that he has no social superiors,
since all men are equal, but he does not admit that he has no social inferiors,
for, from the time of Jefferson onward, the doctrine that all men are equal
applies only upwards, not downwards.

― Bertrand Russell
Global Coke
Global Coke
"What those 'racists' are reflexively and rightly reacting
to is the soulless chill as the fire goes out beneath the
melting pot. Those who think America can thrive as a
'cultural mosaic' are worse than fools; they're Canadians."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Global Coke
Kim Jong-un and Dennis Rodman
Kim Jong-un and Dennis Rodman
"[Dennis Rodman's trip to North Korea] struck
me as uncannily symbolic of, if I may speak
broadly and loosely, the best and worst
of the 'American character abroad.'"

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Kim Jong-un and Dennis Rodman
the_band_huge
the_band_huge
"But where, I wonder, is Obama's hard choice, in this his
now sixth year of leadership? Where is his defining decision,
against the grain, made solely because it seemed right?
Drone strikes in Yemen?"

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
the_band_huge
Two centuries ago, a former European colony decided to catch up with Europe.
It succeeded so well that the United States of America became a monster,
in which the taints, the sickness and the inhumanity of Europe
have grown to appalling dimensions.

― Frantz Fanon
nsa-spy-cartoon-4
nsa-spy-cartoon-4
"We feel better living in a world with privacy, with intimate, unmonitored communication when desired. Those values mean something to us, and give our lives dignity and humanity."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
nsa-spy-cartoon-4
What the United States does best is understand itself.
What it does worst is understand others.

- Carlos Fuentes
Poor Mexico, so far from God
and so close to the United States.

- Porfirio Diaz
the_band_huge
the_band_huge
"Indeed, everything about the American southland was magical
and exotic to the young Canadian musicians, from the sights
and smells to the drawling manner of speech to, especially, the
central role that music played in people’s everyday lives."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
the_band_huge
America is a mistake, a giant mistake.
- Sigmund Freud
America is an adorable woman chewing tobacco.
- Auguste Bartholdi
chimerica
chimerica
"This is the tone of the China Century, a subtle
mix of Nazi/Soviet bravado and 'oriental'
cunning -- easily misunderstood, and
never
heard before, in a real enemy, by the West."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
chimerica
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
"And for the others who argued for English-only
patriotism, I note that there are more than
57 million Americans (about 20% of the nation)
whose first-language is not English...."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Coke and 'America the Beautiful'
predator-firing-missile4
predator-firing-missile4
"This is the behavior, and the fate, of paranoid
old-world tyrants like Hitler or Saddam, not liberal new-world democracies like America pretends to be."

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
predator-firing-missile4
America is the only nation in history which
miraculously has gone directly from barbarism to
degeneration without the usual interval of civilization.

- Georges Clemenceau
I found there a country with thirty-two religions and only one sauce.
- Charles–Maurice Talleyrand
A people who are still, as it were, but in the gristle,
and not yet hardened into the bone of manhood.

- Edmund Burke
America is the only country ever founded on the printed word.
- Marshall McLuhan
"The removal of racist sports nicknames (and mascots) seems outrageously belated
-- why, exactly, has this civil rights cause
taken so long to gain momentum?"

JOIN THE DISCUSSION
The atom bomb is a paper tiger which the
United States reactionaries use to scare people.
It looks terrible, but in fact it isn't.

- Mao Tse-tung
They made us many promises, more than I can remember, but
they kept only one; they promised to take our land, and they did.

- Red Cloud
In America sex is an obsession,
in other parts of the world it is a fact.

- Marlene Dietrich
I would rather have a nod from an American,
than a snuff-box from an emperor.

- Lord Byron
One day the United States discovered it was an empire.
But it didn’t know what an empire was.
It thought that an empire was merely the biggest of all corporations.

- Roberto Calasso
"For all the good things he did and tried to do, in a way, for me, Mandela's greatness lay more in what he did not do. And this, I think, is his greatest lesson for America."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
Americans are so enamored of equality, they would rather
be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

- Alexis de Tocqueville
newtown
newtown
"No one, I thought, could watch those scenes, of young children slaughtered en masse, and so many parents grieving, without thinking that this, finally, would tip some kind of balance in the country."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
newtown
If you are prepared to accept the consequences of your dreams
then you must still regard America today with the same naive
enthusiasm as the generations that discovered the New World.

- Jean Baudrillard
I am willing to love all mankind, except an American.
- Samuel Johnson
America, thou half brother of the world;
With something good and bad of every land.

- Philip Bailey
"What can be more powerful than disinformation in the Information Age?"
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
England and America are two countries separated by the same language.
- Sir Walter Besant
Christopher Columbus, as everyone knows, is honored by
posterity because he was the last to discover America.

- James Joyce
Now, from America, empty indifferent things
are pouring across, sham things, dummy life.

- Rainer Maria Rilke
If the United States is to recover fortitude and lucidity,
it must recover itself, and to recover itself it must
recover the "others"- the outcasts of the Western world.
- Octavio Paz
The youth of America is their oldest tradition.
It has been going on now for three hundred years.

- Oscar Wilde
"America really is, for most Americans, all things considered, a good place to be, and all they really want is for everyone to enjoy the same privilege and pleasure."
JOIN THE DISCUSSION
When good Americans die they go to Paris;
when bad Americans die they go to America.

- Oscar Wilde
jobs drug dealer
jobs drug dealer
They're nothing more than traffickers; and as the smart traffickers'll tell you, you don't use the merchandise. They are just inoculating their kids with a tech-drug serum, to immunize them against the very merchandise that put the **** bowling alley in their basement.
jobs drug dealer
America is therefore the land of the future, where, in the ages that
lie before us, the burden of the World's History shall reveal itself.

- Georg Friedrich Hegel
America is a large, friendly dog in a very small room.
Every time it wags its tail, it knocks over a chair.

- Arnold Toynbee
Americans always try to do the right thing after they've tried everything else.
- Winston Churchill
The thing that impresses me most about Americans
is the way parents obey their children.

- Edward, Duke of Windsor
Americans are apt to be unduly interested in discovering
what average opinion believes average opinion to be.

- John Maynard Keynes
Europe was created by history.
America was created by philosophy.

- Margaret Thatcher
America is God's crucible, the great Melting-Pot where all the races of
Europe are melting and reforming!... The real American has not yet arrived.
He is only in the crucible, I tell you - he will be the fusion of all races.

- Israel Zangwill
American dreams are strongest in the hearts of those
who have seen America only in their dreams.

- Pico Iyer
America: It's like Britain, only with buttons.
- Ringo Starr
The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer.
It has never yet melted.

― D.H. Lawrence
I have two conflicting visions of America.
One is a kind of dream landscape and the other is a kind of black comedy.

― Bono
The American mirror, said the voice, the sad American mirror
of wealth and poverty and constant useless metamorphosis,
the mirror that sails and whose sails are pain.

― Roberto Bolaño

October 17, 2017

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Author Topic: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!


Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: March 15, 2014, 14:58

1) They say that "democratic process" must be followed in Crimea. But who voted for the current government in Kiev? No one. It was a violent coup. The democratically elected leader of Ukraine is Yanukovich. He offered new elections this year, and they threw him out. This is the democratic process that America is defending.
2) They say no one must violate Ukraine's "territorial integrity", but violating Iraq's is okay, or Grenada, Yemen, Haiti, Afghanistan or all the others documented here, whenever it suited their interests: http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html.
3) They say no sovereign nation should be interfered with. Well, see #2. The Ukraine nation state is about as old as Justin Bieber, and about as rational. Russians make up 75% of Donetsk region, 70% of Lugansk region, 60% of the Crimea. Life is Russian in these states. They belong in Russia. We can debate the borderline states, but only the most blatant form of hegemonistic interference, by America, can stand in the way of the natural and finally inevitable self-rationalization of this nonsensical pseudo-country.
As long as such self-serving hypocrisy motivates America's response, Ukraine will only sink further into needless bloodshed, and that blood will be on America's head.

But now, an American solution!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/henry-kissinger-to-settle-the-ukraine-crisis-start-at-the-end/2014/03/05/46dad868-a496-11e3-8466-d34c451760b9_story.html
Henry Kissinger says Ukraine should not be a battleground but a bridge between East and West--independent (of Russia at least) and neutral, like Finland.
Finland!
Yes Henry, anyone with the faintest acquaintance with the Slavic peoples know their many similarities with the Finnish. Merely consider the most obvious parallels between Ukraine and Finland: almost no corruption, high levels of economic and governmental transparency, an enlightened western-style democracy (never mind Maidan or the egg-throwing brawls in the Rada), one of the highest levels of standard of living in the world, linguistic and cultural homogeneity; like Ukraine, "Finland is a top performer in numerous metrics of national performance, including education, economic competitiveness, civil liberties, quality of life, and human development. In 2010, Newsweek magazine ranked Finland as the overall "best country in the world" after summing various factors."
Okay, but Ukraine a close second!



Sharon-
Woods
New Member
Posts: 4
Sharon Woods
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: March 16, 2014, 17:50

Thank you, Dima, for that powerful post! I'm certainly not as well informed as you are about the Ukraine, but I still feel there's a positive role for America to play in guiding the nation's future (that may be an indication of my American naivety, but I still feel inclined to trust it!). We're certainly not immune to voting fraud and political dirty tricks here -- the Bush/Gore fiasco is still fresh in my mind -- but the reports out of Crimea seem to indicate that there's a good deal of intimidation going on at the polls (with armed Russian soldiers standing outside the voting booths, speakers blaring Russian folk music, etc.), which makes me yearn for some kind of external oversight/regulation. America could be useful, I think, at least in encouraging transparency and fairness in the voting process as the region moves forward: our hypocrisy here (in that we've been unreliable or downright treacherous in regard to these things in other places) doesn't necessarily disqualify us from doing good. I'm hoping, anyway, that the fate of Crimea can be resolved peacefully -- and that the threat of American economic sanctions will help make Russia play fair.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: March 28, 2014, 07:04

Spoken like a true (good) American!
But now the facts.
1) Crimea has always been a part--an integral part--of Russia, including when Khrushchov 'gave' it to the Soviet State of Ukraine (= Russia).
2) Only a fool (which I'm sure you're not; nor is Kissinger--except about Finland, hahaha) could think that Russia will ever, ever risk its Black Sea interests. It would be like giving away Hawaii...go ahead!
3) Of course there was vote rigging in Crimea--this is how Slavic elections work--the same way you put on more make-up for the opera than for the garden (I assume).
4) But there is no doubt in anybody's mind, including the Crimean Ukrainians and Tartars, that a solid majority was in place (maybe 67%, not 97%).
5) The reason--the right reason--in case your interested, for the soldiers and folk music, was simply to remind the people of #1 and #2, and thus, the fact that a solid majority was the key to their peaceful future existence. This is merely good transparent campaigning, as in America. Ask Bush and the NSA.

So, the Crimea is Russian once again.
And congratulations to America for waving their hands impressively (good transparent campaigning) and doing absolutely nothing of consequence to make matters worse here. But instead, allowing the democratic process to take place. Three cheers for democracy! Three cheers for America!
And so far, no blood--well, not much, they made Maidan worse--on their head.
Americans are fools in a deeper way.

And what now?
Now Putin 'lays low', as you say, allowing the Crimean reality to sink in, and the Russian east of Ukraine to mount the media war which, like traditional artillery, is critical to softening up the enemy before the formal attack is launched. This will go on for some time, until he and the overwhelmingly Russian east Ukraine feel things are ready.
Then, the Donetsk referendum.
And so on.

And America will wave its hands, and feet, and do absolutely nothing of consequence, because of the even more forceful reasons above in the case of Donetsk.
Unless Ukrainians die. Many. On tv.
If many die, and I mean many, and on tv--if it's not on tv it didn't happen for Americans--they may risk something of consequence to themselves...say, one of their cool robot bombers.
But let us wait for the blood (though they are cool); this is all fantasy at this point.



Olga-
Kramarenko
New Member
Posts: 4
Olga Kramarenko
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: March 29, 2014, 14:44

I'm afraid you may be mostly right here, Dima, but you are wrong to be so flippant about democracy, I think. As I argue in the interesting Middle East thread on 'Arab' democracy, if the essential process is corrupted, we are fools, dangerous fools, to keep calling it democracy, and should use other, less enlightened, more (sadly) Russian terms (you know them as well as I do).
Proudly announcing an independently confirmed 67% majority in Crimea, and bravely acting on its consequences, however unpopular with the West, would be an (invasive and aggressive) expression of democratic process.
Puffing up the ballot to a level no intelligent woman would believe is no different and no better than festooning some old hero of the people with so many medals he can no longer stand erect. (How do you like 'festooning'!)



Derek W
New Member
Posts: 1
Derek W
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 3, 2014, 02:00

Well at least we (I mean Americans) have this much right (in spite of the media's efforts to convince us otherwise)...

Poll: Americans say Putin not like Hitler
Posted by
CNN Political Editor Paul Steinhauser and CNN's Dan Merica
(CNN) - The vast majority of Americans say Vladimir Putin's not honest or trustworthy, but according to a new national poll they don't compare the Russian president's actions in Ukraine with the land grabs in the years leading up to World War II by Germany's Adolf Hitler.

A Quinnipiac University survey released Wednesday indicates that only 24% of the public equates Putin's annexing last month of neighboring Ukraine's Crimea peninsula with Hitler's actions, with 51% saying that's too strong a comparison. Just over one in five admitted they don't know enough about pre-Second World War history to answer the question.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2014/04/02/poll-americans-say-putin-not-like-hitler/?hpt=hp_t3



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 4, 2014, 10:55

Quote from Derek W on April 3, 2014, 02:00
Well at least we (I mean Americans) have this much right (in spite of the media's efforts to convince us otherwise)...

Just over one in five admitted they don't know enough about pre-Second World War history to answer the question.

I admire your honesty--don't trust your media, you are ignorant of European history!



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 9, 2014, 21:03

And now the Donetsk (etc.) referendum, which America "will not recognize"...ouch!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10754873/Kiev-warns-of-force-as-separatists-build-barricades-in-east-Ukraine.html
Crow about the sovereignty of a nonsensical twenty-year-old paper country, and you're nothing more than a parrot.



Anna-
Blazhko
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Anna Blazhko
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 13, 2014, 07:05

We live in a small village only minutes away from Krasnyi Liman and Sloviansk, we shop in Krasnyi Liman and have friends in both places. I'm told that local residents are supplying tires for the barricades in Sloviansk. Life seems perfectly normal. To those who think that Putin and Russia are behind all this, I must remind you that the loudest, most violent element in Maidan, led by the so-called Banderas (after the 20th c. hypernationalist Stepan Bandera), was boldly threatening to erase all traces of Russian language and life from the eastern provinces. The people here really do fear them, and their new, very powerful role in the coup government in Kiev.



Olga-
Kramarenko
New Member
Posts: 4
Olga Kramarenko
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 15, 2014, 03:18

I see that Ukraine has struck back, clearing out the separatists in Kharkiv, with no action from Russia. A wrinkle in the master plan, Dima?



Olga-
Kramarenko
New Member
Posts: 4
Olga Kramarenko
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 25, 2014, 12:34

A greater wrinkle after that, of course, when the anti-terrorist assault force surrendered to the terrorists!
But the move is back on track now, it seems, with the recent action around Slovyansk.
(Are you okay there, Dima?)
I come from the Rostov-on-Don area in Russia, close to the Ukrainian border, and my family and friends there, like the country in general, are celebrating Putin's annexation of Crimea and his spirited defense of Russian Ukraine.
Given the woeful lack of understanding of Putin's--and Russians'--outlook here, I should quote a recent article from the BBC, with the opinions of Roger McDermott, senior fellow in Eurasian studies at the Jamestown Foundation, which sheds light here for those who wish to see.

'Ukraine is of huge strategic importance to Moscow; Mr McDermott underlines the importance of seeing this through Russia's eyes.
"This crisis seen from Moscow's perspective, is a 'Eurasian crisis', not a European crisis as such," he says.
"That means it is about Russia and its future role in Eurasia."
Russian President Vladimir Putin "learnt to play hard ball in this crisis by carefully observing how the US and Nato acted since 1999", Mr McDermott says.
"He saw Nato out-of-area operations as a threat to Russian interests, an alliance that expanded beyond its means, and a US that acted as a global hegemon, including promoting 'colour revolutions' close to Russia.
"The latest crisis was one step too far, and Putin relied on a Russian intelligence assessment that views the events of the Maidan [the popular protests in Kiev and other cities] in a very different way to the West's reading - and he made his move."'

For many Russians, this is simply a much needed, modest, 'better late than never' response to a quarter-century of non-stop encroachment on its homeland and ill-disguised bullying from America and the West.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: April 25, 2014, 13:59

Just back from a busy week in Slovyansk and country, visiting friends and sightseeing—благодаря Ольга!
(Are you okay there?)
Exactly right about Russian view. McDermott is a worried man, I have seen other things of his. And he is right to be worried, because no one is listening to him! America only listens to him worry, and thinks nonsense about cold wars and such.
Russia was a proud and stupid country. Now it is a humiliated and stupid country. It has remained vigorously stupid over this quarter-century, and now looks much—and acts much—like Germany in the 1930s, another proud and stupid country, equally capable of great things.
First Crimea, now Sudetenland. Henlein in Carlsbad, Ponomaryov in Slovyansk.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 1, 2014, 06:40

http://www.smh.com.au/world/baseball-batwielding-separatists-seize-second-ukrainian-provincial-capital-20140430-zr1m1.html#ixzz30KYGAm3f

"Today, Russia seeks to change the security landscape of eastern and central Europe," US Secretary of State John Kerry said in a speech on Tuesday. "Whatever path Russia chooses, the United States and our allies will stand together in our defence of Ukraine," Mr Kerry said.

No Disneyland for you, Sergei Shoygu!
_______

What America does not--or pretends to not--realize is that the Slavic people are the last significant European people to remain wild and strong and brutal and stupid. The 20th century Germans were the last before them, but their brilliant and devastating flame finally burned out, forever, in 1945--extinguished by the greater savagery of the Russian people and their land. And now we are the last, our brutality preserved by the decades of Soviet tyranny, while the rest of Europe went soft. The last Dorians, the last Vikings, the last Mongols, the last Huns.
America has lost its savagery. Traded it for what it thinks in its lazy Persian way is civilization. And suddenly it's up against real people, real men, who will hurt and kill for pleasure, who will parade and blast and shoot and stab because it feels good, good to be alive. Real people, disguised as Europeans, not dark-skinned foreigners wearing bedsheets on their heads. Now and then, even in America, those volcanic depths break the surface--in the burning Bush, for example, with his medieval dungeon in Guantanamo. But they are quickly dying out, and comically petrified in Obama.
Your sanctions America, are like the Polish cavalry in 1939, but without the Poles' bravery. Sad, silly, and swept away like flies.
You Kerry, should be ashamed of yourself for using such brave and strong words in such a weak and cowardly way. It is an insult to all those real people, everywhere, who actually defend things.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 1, 2014, 23:21

This almost says it all.
http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20140501-718623.html
"I'm just kidding."
Right out of Gogol.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 9, 2014, 16:47

"Ukraine crisis: Putin visit to Crimea angers US and EU."
BBC News

Ouch!



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 10, 2014, 16:10

And so the Donetsk referendum, with Tsar Vladimir playing his part in the last days of the pre-referendum media war to perfection: celebrating the result of the Crimean referendum while poo-pooing exactly the same thing in even more heavily Russian Donetsk.
According to my Russian friends in Ukraine, who are going to the 'so-called' polls tomorrow, a pregnant women was burned to so-called death in the Odessa trade unions building, two so-called children of three, along with their grandmother, were shot dead by a fascist sniper, and a young couple, with their child, who drove through a barricade in Slovyansk, were gunned down in their so-called car.
And more from our local sage, John Kerry, Stenographer of State for President Neville Obama:
"This is really the Crimea playbook all over again, and no civilised nation is going to recognise the results of such a bogus effort.
We flatly reject this illegal effort to further divide Ukraine."
Unfortunately, John, the uncivilised nations, the nations who stand outside the White House in their underwear, hailing a cab for some pizza, will recognize the results, while the civilised nations continue to waste our time with nonsense like yours.
The uncivilised nations think, hey, if you want a pizza, get one, don't sit around talking about it forever.
Speaking of which, I hear much about NATO's military chest thumping to 'reassure' the allies it swallowed up in its inexorable march to the borders of Russia, but I hear nothing about about a United Nations peacekeeping force being deployed in Ukraine.
Why is that?



Serge-
Beaudoin
New Member
Posts: 4
Serge Beaudoin
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 12, 2014, 18:39

You seem pretty sure of things there, Dima, and so far your predictions have come true.
Maybe you're right also that a different 'kind' of democracy is at work there--and you're certainly right about the hypocrisy of America, encouraging a military coup in Kiev and condemning exactly the same thing in Crimea, Donetsk and Lugansk regions.
Here in Quebec we have a similar situation in many ways to the one in eastern Ukraine: different language, history, culture, oppression from a 'ruling' class centered in another region, even violent separatist conflict a few decades ago.
What I don't get is why the organizers of the Donetsk referendum (for example), couldn't have just done their referendum, without all the macho stuff, which has caused a lot of unnecessary harm and made the movement look stupid and brutal in the eyes of civilized countries. (Of course, they were already having egg fights and brawls in the parliament before Maidan, but this looks stupid and brutal.)
If the coup government suppressed that peaceful expression of democratic will, the West would have been much more on their side, and used its total leverage with Kiev to protect the movement, not denounce it. And if the referendum passed, they would win exactly what--and all--they can realistically hope to achieve: serious consideration for international acceptance of their independence. As it is, they have no hope of that.
Why all the nonsense?



Wyatt Dick
Veteran Their American
Posts: 41
Wyatt Dick
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 20, 2014, 08:01

American hypocrisy is fairly clear here, at least with respect to their constant declarations that 'international law' is being violated. Granted, the Obama administration may have a better record than previous administrations with respect to international law, but all presidents must take some responsibility for the actions of their predecessors. More importantly, it seems intellectually dishonest to suggest that international law has ever been capable of dealing with these kinds of high-level, existential geopolitical problems. If it weren't for it couching so many of its proclamations in legalistic terminology, America's statements would be a lot easier to take.

In contrast, Russia's statements are often so obviously and ridiculously hypocritical and self-serving--and even blatantly untrue--that there is a strange kind of honesty to them. It is as if Russia and its supporters are essentially saying that this game of words is irrelevant bullshit--a Western, effete game that they are mocking by playing, but with no concern for the truth. They feel free to say whatever they want because they don't take words seriously--theirs or the West's.

What I do find interesting is speculating what each of the Ukrainian sides really want--or will one day desire. The ethnic and/or linguistic Russians are being driven by other considerations at the moment, but I suspect that one day (for good or ill) they will succumb to the 'Disneyland' phenomenon, and wish they had sided with Europe. And Ukrainian Ukrainians may one day look back and wonder why they ever fought to keep the Crimea and the Donetsk region. Once they get past the national pride-driven desire for pure, aggregate national power, they may just start to focus on becoming as individually rich as they can (as many smaller countries eventually do). Decades from now, the 'rump' Ukraine may look back and see the predominantly Russian-speaking regions as economic millstones they have become quite happy to have gotten rid of.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 20, 2014, 11:59

"In contrast, Russia's statements are often so obviously and ridiculously hypocritical and self-serving--and even blatantly untrue--that there is a strange kind of honesty to them. It is as if Russia and its supporters are essentially saying that this game of words is irrelevant bullshit--a Western, effete game that they are mocking by playing, but with no concern for the truth. They feel free to say whatever they want because they don't take words seriously--theirs or the West's."

Getting warm.

"What I do find interesting is speculating what each of the Ukrainian sides really want--or will one day desire. The ethnic and/or linguistic Russians are being driven by other considerations at the moment, but I suspect that one day (for good or ill) they will succumb to the 'Disneyland' phenomenon, and wish they had sided with Europe."

One day. One far off day. For now and the foreseeable, it is the Empire and the Tsar. Long dormant, or fetishized in Bolshevik thugs like Stalin, and now back in bloom.

"And Ukrainian Ukrainians may one day look back and wonder why they ever fought to keep the Crimea and the Donetsk region. Once they get past the national pride-driven desire for pure, aggregate national power, they may just start to focus on becoming as individually rich as they can (as many smaller countries eventually do)."

They already have, and Renat Akhmetov Inc. already is a small country.

"Decades from now, the 'rump' Ukraine may look back and see the predominantly Russian-speaking regions as economic millstones they have become quite happy to have gotten rid of."

The question is how quickly, and how painlessly, they can cleanse their souls of a soul. Their soul is still Slavic, and this is great and a great obstacle.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 21, 2014, 07:13

Damn, just when you had him on his knees...http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/05/21/china-russia-gas-deal/9365155/

"It's a demonstration of the fact that Russia always has and always will have other options to develop relations elsewhere. The threat of isolation coming from the West will not be complete," Sergei Utkin, political expert at the Russian Academy of Sciences, said.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 21, 2014, 13:41

Two little windows on our world.

Recently, the lunatic Igor Kolomoisky, major-owner of one of Ukraine’s biggest (and most Western) banks--aptly named Privatbank--shortly after being appointed Governor of Dnepropetrovsk Region by the coup government in Kiev, declared (and I’m not joking) that he would personally pay anyone who killed a Russian sympathizer in Ukraine 10,000 Hryvnias—okay, it only buys a Twix bar, but you can't put a price on pleasure!
Shortly after this, surprisingly, Privatbanks and bankmachines were the subject of countless attacks from prospective targets, 'forcing' the lunatic Kolomoisky to shut down every branch and machine in Donetsk and Lugansk Regions, confiscating the meager savings of tens of thousands of so-called poor people.
A burning branch, complete with drunken rock-thrower, for your viewing enjoyment:

Some Krasnyi Lyman friends of mine are shopping in the local ATB (big grocery chain) a few days ago, when a big boy with Kalashnikov suddenly appears and encourages everybody to leave immediately. My friends see a guy (manager?) pinned face down on the floor, in the produce section, with a boot in his back and Kalashnikov to his head, and big boys with Kalashnikovs all over the place, looking very impressive to themselves.
‘Okay, off you go, off you go. And take your groceries! Take them—gift from Yulia Timoshenko, hahaha!’
(I hear she's the owner of ATB chain.)
So, off go my friends, arrive in the suddenly empty parking lot, hear a shot from the store, and drive away.
Say so long to all your pizzas, Yulia Timoshenko, hahaha!



Wyatt Dick
Veteran Their American
Posts: 41
Wyatt Dick
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 29, 2014, 01:11

I see an idea being implied that reminds me of the old adage that the opposite of love is not hate, but rather apathy. Here, the notion that seems to be being suggested is that the true opposite of magnanimous behavior is not pusillanimous behavior, but rather the soulless prioritization of materialism over all other, more human considerations. Such a point of view is not without merit, but it also leads to some startling implications.
For a start, it tends to turn the accepted roster of heroes and villains on its head. If the the Russian team is to be cheered for because, at the end of the day, despite the general thuggishness and small-mindedness with which they are being pursued, notions of tribe, language, and culture are still preferable to subjugating all human feeling and history to whatever is most efficient with regards to making money, then what about cultural conservatives in America, or even Muslim 'extremists' (or --dare I say it--terrorists) fighting to preserve their way of life, which for all the evil in some of it, still seems far more human than the West's prescription of liberal humanist capitalism for all.
And of course all of this begs the question: when is a more human course of action so evil that it becomes worse than the less human, materialist alternative? This is probably to abstract to be answered now, but something to be kept in mind. At the moment, there is a relative balance of thuggery on all sides. But I imagine that it won't be too long before this balance is broken, and the European-looking Ukrainians adopt a seemingly less primitive and apparently more benign Western approach to things that contrasts more markedly with Russian behavior.



Dima-
Filatov
Experienced Their American
Posts: 16
Dima Filatov
Re: The usual American hypocrisy in Ukraine--and the Finnish solution!
on: May 29, 2014, 03:50

It wasn't too long, and its name is Poroshenko: http://edition.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/01/31/intv-poroshenko.cnn.html

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